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Powered by Guardian.co.ukThis article titled “Apple CEO Tim Cook testifies at Senate hearing over tax practices – live” was written by Jim Newell in Washington, for guardian.co.uk on Tuesday 21st May 2013 18.00 UTC

Summary

Now that the panel with Apple executives is over, we’re going to wrap up after a long morning dissecting corporate tax minimization maneuvers.

There was some controversy heading into this, as voiced by Rand Paul in the first part of today’s hearings: why “drag” a company so successful as Apple before the investigations subcommittee to question its tax strategies, which all accept as legal? Hasn’t Apple done enough?

Senator Carl Levin, chair of the subcommittee, is retiring at the end of his term. That may explain why he was willing to tread a fair line, but one which nevertheless might invite some backlash. His goal was to use Apple – a company so prominent that it compels livebloggers to watch hours of early subcommittee hearings about it – to show the strategies that the largest U.S.-headquartered multinational corporations can use to exploit a loophole-ridden corporate tax code to the point where somehow, they’re barely paying any taxes.

All of the senators agreed that the corporate tax code is in desperate need of fixing.

But some of the senators, notably Paul and Ron Johnson, noticed few to no problems here: fewer taxes on corporations if beneficial to economic growth, “everyone” has an ownership stake in Apple one way or another. Apple deserves an apology.

By the end of the second panel with Apple executives, it looked as though the committee had lost its focus and just wanted to bounce some ideas off of Cook: what would be a good corporate tax rate? What do you think about Simpson-Bowles? What can we do to help protect our intellectual property owners in foreign markets?

Control worked back to Levin by the end, who closed things with a charge. Basically, he just wanted Apple to admit that it, like other MNCs, set up subsidiaries overseas and transferred assets there there to avoid paying taxes in the United States. That’s all. And what he got in return was legalese.

Thank you for joining us.

The second panel is over.

As the “bullying” hearing shifts pretty quickly into rich folks on both sides on the questioning complaining about how long it takes to do their taxes, Senator Levin tries refocus things. If Apple says it can’t bring its profits home from the Irish subsidiaries, why can it bring them back from South America? Bullock, the tax chief, says it’s because of the different cost-sharing agreements.

The question is whether transfer of intellectual property (the “crown jewels”) is really an “arms-length agreement” between two separate parties. Are the parties really “separate,” if Apple owns and controls the foreign parties?

Levin is asking Cook why he says he “can’t” bring those $100 billion properties home? Apple can, but of course it would require more tax payments, which is the whole point of these things.

Cook seems to like it better when Republican senators are complimenting him on dodging taxes.

The Apple suits keep trying to move everything back to the original agreement made in Ireland in 1980, calling everything since then a natural continuation of it. Levin wants to ask about the specific agreement, made between Apple employees in 2008, that “shifted” the “crown jewels” overseas.

“Don’t kid us” about the implications this makes on U.S. revenues, Levin says.

This is a great line of questioning from Levin, and the first time all day that Cook and co. look uncomfortable.

Updated

While Senator Rob Portman asks Apple’s tax chief how much tax compliance costs the company in administrative costs (“A lot”), let’s watch McCain ask about why he has to update his apps all the time.

Senator Kelly Ayotte asks Cook what a good corporate tax rate would be. (Remember when people thought this hearing would be a crucifixion of Apple, instead of asking them for advice?) Cook suggests mid-20s, according to studies he’s seen.

Updated

Senator Ron Johnson again is asking about who owns Apple – it’s largely mutual funds, pension funds, etc. He’s getting around to the same point he made earlier, that “everyone” benefits from Apple not paying taxes. This does assume that “everyone” has a sizable investment portfolio, or at least one that’s more beneficial than expanded public services would be.

Updated

The second panel is restarting after a break. Senator McCaskill is up. She asks about the relationship with the Irish government.

Cook explains, again, that this arrangement was set up in 1980, and since then the company has built up a valuable operation there. McCaskill, like Levin earlier, wants to talk about now. How does the U.S. keep other countries from ”undercutting us” like Ireland did in the 80s? Cook offers the usual corporate tax code simplification/base-broadening talk.

McCaskill asks about how Apple applies a cost-benefit analysis in deciding if it should relocate to another country. Cook goes on an adorable patriotic tangent about how much he loves America. “We are an American company!” Hmm.

Updated

The second panel ends (for now) with McCain asking “why the hell” he keeps having to update all his apps. 

Updated

Cook: “I don’t see it as unfair. I’m not an unfair person.”

Cook: “I personally don’t understand the difference between a tax presence and a tax residence.” (He probably does, is the thing.)

McCain: Why does AOI exist? 4,000 employees is impressive, but not compared to the size of Apple’s workforce.

Cook: Well, in the 1980s, Apple was looking for a place to distribute its products abroad…

McCain: But what about today?

Cook says that the company’s long relationship with the Irish government has allowed it to develop employees overseas with great experience and knowledge of what they do there. (Perhaps realizing that this sounds laughably silly, he reiterates that AOI is just a holding company, doesn’t matter.)

Senator McCain asks Tim Cook if he feel he has been bullied. Cook is delighted to be here.

You don’t feel you had to be “dragged here?”

“I didn’t get dragged here, sir,” Cook responds, giggling.

Updated

Levin asks about if the subsidiaries own Apple’s intellectual property. “They do in part,” Bullock answers.

But do AOI and AOE file tax returns?

In the United States, they do not. But Apple Inc. does!

“We’ve already been through that,” Levin says.

And Levin’s time is up.

Watching Bullock is tense. Regarding the subsidiary AOI, he says: “It… does… not… have a… tax residence… which doesn’t mean it doesn’t pay taxes!” He could use a drink of water.

Updated

Senator Levin is ready for questions. He asks Apple tax chief Phillip Bullock where the Irish subsidiaries are “functionally” controlled. After a long pause and some strange faces, Bullock believes that the central management control is in the United States.

Cook doesn’t know the “legal definition” of where companies are centrally managed and controlled but “practically” agrees that the subsidiaries are.

Bullock doesn’t believe that “centrally managed and controlled” is an actual term in U.S. tax law.

What a chest-thumpingly patriotic speech from all-smiles Tim Cook. Now it’s time for the CFO, Peter Oppenheimer, to get into the weeds of the subsidiaries.

Oppenheimer talks of a time not long ago, when it was possible there would be a “world without Apple.” He talks about the streamlining of international operations that helped turn the company around. (There were some inventions along the way, if we recall.)

Updated

Cook: “We estimate that the App Store has developed over 300,000 jobs in the U.S … None of that activity was there five years ago.”

We keep the “design and development” of Apple products in the United States.

Perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not, he responds to McCain, noting that Apple does comply with “the spirit of the law.”

He adds that U.S. tax law has not kept up with “the digital age.” Good for him, no?

Updated

Tim Cook’s panel begins

The first panel of tax experts is dismissed, the second is brought in. Apple CEO Tim Cook is delivering his statement.

Apple is proud to be an American company he says, exuberantly. He is now delivering corporate pablum about the excitement of innovation and so on.

The grinning man second from the right. Check out that grin.

Our Dan Roberts, in the room, adds: “Apple team (lots of pinstripes and ties for the Valley) nodding along and smiling as Rand Paul says they would be neglecting their duty to shareholders if they didn’t seek ways to minimise their tax exposure.”

Updated

Senator Claire McCaskill has no questions, but just wants to say that she loves Apple. “I love Apple. I love Apple!”

McCain, who does *not* get along with Rand Paul, expresses that he finds it “offensive” for Levin to be accused of trying to “bully” a company. Cue the gossip press.

Poor old Mr. Apple, just trying to mind his own business.

Rand Paul is up again. This should be fun. (Fun?)

He asks Professor Harvey if he makes use of any tax deductions.

“Obviously I do,” Harvey says, grinning.

Paul asks if he thinks he’s a bad person for doing that. Harvey does not. Well, there’s that.

Paul On tax reform: “Just do it.” Stop talking about “evil Apple.” Stop vilifying them – they should be getting an “award” today.

“I’m very frustrated by these proceedings… They’re just doing what every company does.” Bring me a company that tries to maximize their tax burden, he says.

This does simplify the issues under discussion a bit.

Updated

Responding to McCain, Shay strongly reiterates that the real problem is on the “imbalance” between the level of Apple R&D done in the United States and the tax revenue the government collects from it.

McCain says Apple has violated “the spirit of the law” if not the “letter of the law.” He agrees that much of the problem lies with Congress, however, and calls for comprehensive corporate tax reform.

McCain asks about how successfully a repatriation deal, for companies to bring home earnings under a lower rate, could be done. Harvey sees such a tax holiday as a bad idea, as the last time it was done in 2004, companies used it to distribute dividends and pay down debt – not expand domestically. Shay concurs, calling such holidays a temporary “windfall” for companies that does little long-term help.

Updated

Senator Tom Carper is asking questions. Carper hails from Delaware, America’s own tiny tax haven on-the-shore.

Carper is using this as an occasion to ask about the tax recommendations in the Simpson-Bowles deficit reduction plan. Shay says the plan’s broad recommendation to eliminate all tax expenditures as part of tax reform is a pretty, well… undeveloped suggestion?

This is “difficult stuff,” and doing tax reform in “broad brush strokes” is not a good idea. In the meantime, there are smaller steps against income-shifting that the government can take to reclaim tax revenue.

Updated

Harvey says it would be a good question for Congress to ask, “how should technology income be allocated?” as a means of focusing the issue.

Senator Ron Johnson is asking who benefits from Apple’s arrangement. Who are the shareholders? Harvey, trying to say this without being a jerk: “The people who own shares of the company.”

What Johnson’s trying to get around to is that many of Apple’s shareholders are American so everything is fine.

Johnson suggests only taxing income on a pass-through basis, eliminating the corporate tax.

Updated

Levin is asking about ASI (one of the subsidiaries) being located in a foreign jurisdiction but effectively being controlled by Cupertino’s headquarters. Does that make sense? (He is trying to get the bow-tied professor all outraged, which doesn’t appear likely.)

Shay says we need to rethink our rules on the “cross-border context” to get in the minds of MNCs.

It gets even more elegantly vague:

Shay says he doesn’t see this as an “Apple-bashing day,” more just an opportunity to “see where we are.” How the development of the corporate tax code got to the point where we are today, where Apple can legally set up such a structure.

Updated

It’s time for a few questions.

Harvard Law tax professor Stephen Shay is now speaking. He says Apple subsidiaries’ lack of tax residence produces what tax planners call “ocean income.”

Here are some recommendations from his submitted testimony:

In the context of current law, changes may be made that would limit the scope for profit shifting. Most promising is a “minimum tax” imposed on the U.S. shareholder of a controlled foreign corporation in respect of low-tax foreign income earned by the controlled foreign corporation. In design, it actually would be a deemed distribution, as under current Subpart F, but the remaining U.S. tax would be collected when the earnings are distributed or the stock is sold. This approach would effectively take away the advantage of tax havens.

This should be accompanied by taking away the advantage of tax havens for foreign companies that invest in the United States. The United States should protect its source tax base by measures that may include imposing withholding tax on and/or restricting deductions for deductible payments of income paid to or treated as beneficially owned by related persons not “effectively taxed” on the income. In doing this, the United States would take away a substantial advantage that foreign-owned companies have in structuring investments in the United States.

Adopting a balanced approach is necessary to assure a level playing field. I have described elsewhere an approach that if taken by the United States would provide an incentive for other countries to adopt complementary rules. Moreover, the United States should strongly support and lead efforts at the OECD to combat base erosion and profit shifting. I acknowledge that the ideas described above need development into specific proposals, but this may be done in a reasonable time frame and will have value in relation to the principal international tax reform proposals.

Updated

Tax professor Richard Harvey is now giving his statement.

“This is going to be a little bit of an Apple-bashing day,” he suspects, but he notes that what Apple has done is within the bounds of international tax law – which “raises its own issues.”

He says he nearly “fell off my chair” when he heard Apple say it doesn’t use tax gimmicks. Although it should be up to the committee, not him, to decide whether they should be labeled gimmicks. What he’s most interested is in why Apple does this and how the system can be changed.

He relates “check-the-box” regulations to his children’s interest in magic, where companies can max taxable earnings go “poof.” From his submitted testimony:

Although shifting income out of the US and locating it in a tax haven like Ireland are key steps in Apple’s international tax planning, Apple must also avoid the so-called “Subpart F” rules. These rules were originally designed to tax passive income earned by foreign subsidiaries of US MNCs and therefore discourage the shifting of income out of the US. However, the rules have been substantially “gutted” through adoption of (i) the check-the-box regulations, (ii) the CFC look-through rule, (iii) the contract manufacturing exemption, and to a lesser extent (iv) the same-country exception.

He recommends:

• Tightening “Subpart F” rules.

• Increase required transparency for MNCs to get a “true picture” of their tax-planning.

He has other ideas about either (a) drastically overhauling U.S. corporate tax low to lower the nominal rate or (b) achieving global “consensus” on handling MNCs. But he doesn’t see either of those as realistic anytime soon.

Updated

Levin is ticked at Paul’s statement, and getting rather angry.

Senator Rand Paul is up, and he is angry… at his fellow senators. He is “offended” by this hearing “to bully one of America’s greatest success stories. “If anyone should be on trial here, it is Congress.”

The committee “should apologize to Apple.”

He says it’s the government’s fault for creating such a “byzantine” corporate tax system.

Updated

You can read all of the witnesses’ prepared testimonies here.

Senator John McCain is up now.

McCain labels Apple the country’s biggest tax avoider. (It’s a very large company, so.) Most of Apple’s profits, he says, are held by the Irish subsidiaries.

McCain: Apple’s tax strategy has given “new meaning” to its old slogan, “Think Different.”

He notes that 95% of Apple’s R&D takes place in the United States.

Updated

The hearing is beginning. Chairman Carl Levin is giving his opening statement.

He’s discussing the decline of corporate tax revenue as a share of total revenue the government brings in each year due to the use of offshore tax havens.

“Despite the immense impact of these offshore tax havens” on the federal deficit, “few Americans” see their impact. The point of the hearings is to show “the damage it does to our fiscal and economic health.”

“Apple is a success story… I carry an iPhone in my pocket,” he says. “What may not be known” is its complex use of tax havens. “More and more intellectual property is the dominant source of value in the economy. It is also highly mobile.”

“Apple’s tax avoidance strategy comes in two parts.” First, offshoring intellectual property. Second, making sure that once this is offshore, it remains free from U.S. taxes.

He is now outlining the subsidiary arrangements described by investigators yesterday. Apple subsidiaries exploit the difference between U.S. and Irish law to designate itself a tax resident “nowhere.” Levin argues that since the Irish subsidiaries are “functionally” controlled by stateside headquarters, they should be subject to U.S. tax law.

Apple’s primary method of offshoring intellectual property is through cost-sharing agreements. “I use the term ‘cost-sharing’ with some skepticism,” he says. All of the money being shared belongs to apple, and all of the signatories were Apple employees. “The intellectual property… was generated in the United States,” but the profits go to Ireland.

He now mentions Apple’s “quiet” arrangement with Ireland to pay “almost no income tax.”

The difference between ASI’s costs and earnings, he explains, was close to $70 billion, money that U.S. taxpayers see no chunk of.

Looking ahead to Apple’s prepared testimony, Levin notes: “Apple executives want to focus on the taxes it has paid, but the real issue is the billions that Apple has not paid.”

Updated

It should be a lively subcommittee hearing room, from early indications.

Good morning, this is Jim Newell in Washington. We’re here for this morning’s exciting new Apple public unveiling! Except no iPhones or iPads or dingdongs or anything will be unveiled, sadly. It will be Apple CEO Tim Cook appearing at a hearing before the Senate permanent subcommittee on investigations, about the company’s very special tax practices.

Congressional investigators released findings on Monday showing that Apple uses a “highly questionable” tax minimization strategy of impressive complexity. Several subsidiaries set up by the company, according to investigators, have few or no employees. Located in Ireland, these subsidiaries allowed the company to exist effectively “nowhere” in certain cases.

As the Guardian’s Dominic Rushe wrote yesterday:

During its investigations, the subcommittee found that Apple considers three key subsidiaries, all based in Ireland, to have no tax jurisdiction at all. One of those Irish affiliates, Apple Sales International (ASI), reported sales income of $74bn over four years but paid hardly any tax. In 2011 ASI had pre-tax earnings of $22bn but paid just $10m in tax, a rate of 0.05%.

Apple denies many of the subcommittee’s sweeping allegations, and its strategy heading into this morning’s hearing appears to be one of an ally to those questioning the insanity of the corporate tax code. The company’s prepared testimony says that Apple “welcomes an objective examination of the US corporate tax system, which has not kept pace with the advent of the digital age and the rapidly changing global economy.”

One might expect, however, that senators will badger Cook and other Apple executives, for the cameras.

The hearing begins at 9.30am.

Updated

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Powered by Guardian.co.ukThis article titled “Outgoing IRS chief told: tax system is ‘rotten to the core’ – live blog” was written by Jim Newell, for guardian.co.uk on Friday 17th May 2013 16.03 UTC

Congressman Aaron Schock – who is relatively young, to be fair – says “The IRS’s steller reputation of being above partisan politics has been shattered.” Well, for starters…

Congressman Danny Davis: ”I am not convinced that this is a great, big political conspiracy.” Ohh??

Here’s the heart of the problem and what is not likely to be constructively resolved while everyone focuses on babbling about how President Obama is the New Nixon:

It gets into stickier territory when, in the process of trying to parse it out, the IRS feels it needs to look at donor lists to groups in questions. Miller says there needs to be a powerful rationale for requesting such lists, but again: all of these guidelines are very hazy.

Miller is already getting criticized by conservative commentators for saying earlier that the IRS needs a “bigger budget” to help fix the problems its dealing with. And perhaps that was tone-deaf for today’s hearing.

But as congressman Earl Blumenauer is saying now, what sense does it make for Congress to keep making the tax code more and more complex without giving the IRS additional resources?

It makes perfect political sense. Which means it’s pretty irrational.

Republicans have not been willing to accept this as satisfactory:

Congressman Tom Price is up and appears to have his grandstanding pants today. He describes the government asking people what books they read as “chilling,” then pauses for a while, presumably for us to figure out where he’s going with this.

Price is now working the GOP’s tenuous IRS scandal/Obamacare angle du jour: That Sarah Hall Ingram, who served as head of the IRS’ tax-empt division from 2009-2012, now heading the IRS’… Affordable Care Act compliance division! 

Updated

George says “yes” to a question about whether it would be helpful to have a “tightening” of rules for 501(c)(4) “social welfare” applications. He believes the IRS can do this without additional legislation being passed.

Miller, again, is asked about whether he, or an underling at the IRS, spoke to anyone in the administration from 2010 onward about the sharing of confidential taxpayer information, in violation of the law.

“I have no knowledge of that,” he answers.

“Did you ever speak to anyone in Treasury, not within the IRS, about the sharing of confidential taxpayer information,” congressman Jim Gerlach presses.

Miller evades.

“I can say categorically that I never shared information,” Miller says, adding that he “doesn’t know” if he talked to anyone in the administration about the sharing of information.

It got a bit circular, there.

Inspector general George, in response to a question, reiterates that activity was “inappropriate,” not “illegal.”

Miller is being quizzed about whether he has notes on talking to IRS employees. “Sir, please,” he eventually says.

We’re back. Democratic congressman Lloyd Doggett is up, and chastises chair Dave Camp’s earlier comments about the tax system being “rotten,” noting that Republicans are already trying to use this controversy to take down the new health care law over its tax provisions.

Updated

Briefly, here’s how things have been going: Republicans are mainly trying to nail Miller on why the IRS “targeted” conservative groups and to find a link to the White House; Democrats have been more concerned with the pressures that the flood of 501(c)(4) applications have brought to the IRS. Both, however, acknowledge that the IRS had been handling applications irresponsibly in the highlighted cases.

One special congressman asked if “this is still America,” also, too.

Fifteen minute recess! Everyone go have a nice snack.

Congressman Dave Reichert, with the latest lecture-from-dad type question: Does this committee have the right to know the truth. “This is the United States Congress which you’re accountable to… do you not believe it’s your job to provide us with the information you knew?”

He adds that “I was a cop for 33 years,” for some reason.

Miller is asked to explain the difference between 501(c)(4) non-profits and section 527 political organizations. It’s “difficult,” he says, but they try to look at the level of political expenditures.

Updated

Dare we suggest that we’re at the point where lines of questioning are getting repetitive? Democrat Xavier Becerra is, again, talking about the vagueness of guidelines on 501(c)(4) organizations. Which is a big problem! The hearing should be focused on that, maybe.

Updated

Congressman Robert Neal notes that Merriam-Webster’s word of the day is “litmus test” and – after saying that Merriam-Webster is located in his district (hoorah!) – inquires about whether a corrupt “litmus test” was used to single out conservative tax-emption applications.

He, like many of the Democrats today, goes on to discuss the post-Citizens United “rush” of money into 501(c)(4) groups, under the banner of social welfare, but really for political causes. “There wasn’t this rush to join Sisters of Mercy,” he notes wryly.

Updated

And now there’s Republican Devin Nunes, making the latest attempt to show that this is all Obama’s fault and the administration is evil and loves targeting conservative groups, for bloodsport.

Updated

Congressman Jim McDermott notes that the folks in the Cincinnatti IRS office just “screwed up,” and deserve punishment, but it’s really the vagueness of the 501(c)(4) criteria and amount of information coming through the IRS that leads to such problems.

He stands up for the “thousands and thousands” of “hardworking” employees at the IRS who show up everyday to work at one of the most “hated” organizations. Miller appreciates that.

Vice Presi… err… Congressman Paul Ryan is now up, and grilling Miller on why he hadn’t disclosed “targeting” that he was briefed on to Congress earlier. How can Miller say that “he did not mislead this committee?”

He is trying to explain that the “targeting” list of terms was used to weed out 501(c)(4) applications that appeared to be from “political” groups (as opposed to what are supposedly “social welfare” causes), not just conservative groups. It just so happened that many of them were conservative groups.

Updated

(Referring to the flood of money that’s come into 501(c)(4)s since the Supreme Court case Citizens Union… United… Whatever.)

Updated

Congressman Charlie Rangel, who not that long ago faced all sorts of scandals relating to his tax returns and financial disclosures, is lecturing Miller now.

Miller: “Again, I’m going to take exception to the notion of ‘targeting,’ because it’s a loaded term.” His parsing is not impressing Mr. Brady, the fellow who wanted to know if this country is still America.

Congressman Kevin Brady: “Is this still America?” WELL? IS IT, MILLER?

Both Democratic questioners so far have pointed out that former IRS commissioner Shulman, under whom this started, was appointed by President George W. Bush.

Crowley, a romantic, asks Republicans to focus on getting the facts before making wild political accusations. So adorable.

Updated

It’s gotcha video time!

The clip was like two seconds long. Miller stumbles over his words a bit saying Shulman was “incorrect, but not untruthful.” He notes that “targeting” is a “pejorative” term – in other words, it was not malicious, but certain screens for likely abuse were put in place.

Here’s what our Ewen MacAskill is seeing early on:

Miller so far seems a likeable and credible witness, the best kind of public servant, down to earth, not nerdy, the kind of guy who looks as if he is looking forward to joining his mates at the bar tonight. So he is going to make it hard for hostile Republicans.

Miller has done the right things so far. He has apologised, said the mistakes were foolish and were not partisanship.

What makes it really hard for the Republicans is that Miller has already been sacked so it is hard to touch him. All they can do is try to establish a link between the rogue employees in Cincinnati and the Obama administration and Miller has already said there is none, that he had not reported the incident up the chain.

Camp’s questions indicated that he’s trying to make this as expansive as possible – by looking at not just at small Tea Party groups’ applications at the Cincinnatti IRS office, but also those of big-name 501(c)(4) groups like the National Organization for Marriage and ones started by the Koch Brothers that received additional scrutiny.

Camp closes with a coy little kindergarten lecture: What is it called when you’re asked to disclose the truth and you don’t disclose the truth? (Ooh ooh, We think the answer Camp wants is “lying”!) Miller responds that he always tells the truth.

Camp asks Miller if he was aware that the White House explained a private group’s tax structure to reporters on a conference call in 2010. He thinks he read it “in the newspaper.” He does “not recall” if he made any efforts to pass on this alleged violation of tax law to the IG.

Updated

Miller is beginning his opening statement. He claims that the organization did not have enough notice (two days) to prepare full written testimony. He gives a brief statement, apologizing, and saying that the findings in the IG report are “consistent” with what happened. He notes, however, that the problems were nothing more than “mistakes.”

George, the inspector general, is giving his opening statement, largely reiterating the finds of his report.

Congressman Sandy Levin, the Democratic ranking member on the committee, is just as righteous in his fury – a relatively rare bipartisan occurrence that doesn’t speak well for Steven Miller’s morning. He emphasizes that the IRS’ head of the tax exemption division, Lois Lerner, “should be relieved of her duties.”

He does, however, warn the GOP not to make this a kickoff to its 2014 campaign season. Advice that will surely be heeded!…??

Dave Camp, chair of the committee, in his opening statement: “This is not a personnel problem. This is a problem of the IRS being too large, too powerful, too intrusive and too abusive.” He calls the tax system “rotten at the core.”

Meanwhile, this is true:

Good morning, this is Jim Newell in Washington. We’re here to cover what will presumably be the most unpleasant day of acting IRS commissioner Steven Miller‘s soon-to-be-over career.

Miller, who was fired on Wednesday, officially stays on duty until next Wednesday. And today he will join J Russell George, the Treasury inspector general for tax administration, as a witness in a hearing before the House Ways and Means committee on the IRS’s “practice of discriminating” against organizations for political purposes.

It will be the first hearing with Miller as a witness since news broke two weeks ago that applications from groups seeking tax-exempt status, frequently those with names including terms like “Tea Party,” were singled out by the IRS for extra scrutiny starting in early 2010. Three years later, some have still not been processed.

George’s IG report, released on Tuesday, found that “inappropriate criteria were used to identify tax-exempt applications for review,” and made a series of recommendations for the IRS to take going forward. Its released prompted the administration to relieve Miller of his (acting duties).

Miller will have a lawyer at today’s hearing. He does face the threat of self-incrimination if he chooses to speak. And with lawmakers on both sides, but especially Republicans who’ve been concerned about the IRS’ alleged practice of selective enforcement in the past, looking to jam him, it will be a tense morning.

The hearing is scheduled to begin at 9am.

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Powered by Guardian.co.ukThis article titled “Obama: I ‘did not know anything’ about probe of IRS misconduct – live” was written by Tom McCarthy in New York, for guardian.co.uk on Thursday 16th May 2013 17.15 UTC

A question from a Turkish reporter about chemical weapons in Syria. Has Assad crossed the red line in Syria?

Erdogan first: “On chemical weapons… all that information is shared by our administrations… We share information. We will continue to work in this way.”

Obama: We are “constantly sharing information. We have seen evidence of the use of chemical weapons inside of Syria. It is important to us to make sure that we’re able to get more specific information. .. But separate from chemical weapons… we know that tens of thousands are being killed.”

The president says the US will continue its humanitarian support, its support for the opposition and “try to mobilize the entire international community” to pressure Assad.

As for the red line, “What I have said is that the use of chemical weapons are something that the civilized world has recognized should be out of bounds. And as we gather more evidence… my intention is to make sure we’re representing what we know to the international community.”

He then seems to leave it to the international community “to put what pressure they can” on Assad.

“This is also an international problem. It’s very much my hope to continue to work with all the various parties involved, including Turkey, to find a solution.

Then he dismisses the possibilities for unilateral US actions:

“I don’t think anyone in the region, including the prime minister, thinks that US unilateral actions by themselves would bring about a resolution.”

Erdogan is asked whether he still plans to visit Gaza.

He says yes, in June, and that he also will visit the West Bank. “I place a lot of significance on this visit in terms of peace in the Middle East,” he says.

First question: Did anyone in the White House know about the investigation of misconduct at the IRS before the news reports? Shouldn’t the president have known before he heard it on the news?

“I spoke to this yesterday,” Obama says. “My main concern is fixing a problem. We began that process by accepting the resignation of the acting director. We will be putting in new leadership… that we gather all the facts, that we hold accountable those who have taken these outrageous actions.”

He calls the episode “unacceptable.”

It’s really raining now. Obama asks for Marines with umbrellas. They duly appear.

“You guys I’m sorry about,” Obama tells the press.

“I certainly did not know anything about the IG report before [it] had been leaked through the press,” Obama says.

Erdogan says he’s going to cut his remarks short “but not to flee from the rain!”

Obama asks him if he wants an umbrella. Erdogan declines.

Erdogan thanks the president for hosting him. He offers condolences for the Boston marathon bombings. He calls for a strengthened bilateral trade agreement.

On Syria, “we have views that overlap,” Erdogan says. “Ending this bloody process in Syria and meeting the legitimate demands of the people by establishing a new government are two areas where we are in full agreement… We also agree that we have to prevent Syria from becoming a place for terrorist organizations.”

Erdogan says that chemical weapons must not be used in Syria.

“I want to make one other point. There’s been intense discussion… around the attacks in Benghazi,” the president says.

“I am intent on making sure… we prevent another tragedy like this. At my direction, we’ve been taking a series of steps that were recommended by the review board after the incident.”

He says they’re reviewing security; improving training; increasing intelligence and early-warning capabilities at diplomatic outposts.

“We’re not going to be able to do this alone. We need congressional partners.”

Obama says he’s calling on Congress to fund the state budget to provide for better security.

Obama then offers his condolences for “the outrageous bombings that took place in Reyhanli. As always the US stands with you as your country fight against terrorism,” he says.

Obama praises what he calls Erdogan’s successful fight against PKK violence.

Obama turns to Syria, saying Turkey has shown “extraordinary generosity” in hosting refugees. The US will remain a major donor of humanitarian aid to refugees to help “shoulder this burden,” he says.

“We’re going to keep increasing pressure on the Assad regime and working with the Syrian opposition.

“We both agree that Assad needs to go,’ Obama says. Assad needs to transfer power to a transitional body, the president says.

Obama announces a new “high-level committee” to foster trade with Turkey, which he says is a crucial complement to EU trade.

As NATO allies, we’re reinforcing our commitment to our shared security, Obama says.

This visit reflects the importance that the United States places on its relationship with our ally, Turkey,” Obama says.

He says they’ve discussed Afghanistan, “where our troops serve together,” the G20, and Iran “where we agree it is critical that that country not obtain a nuclear weapon.”

Obama praises what he says are Erdogan’s efforts to secure peace with Israel.

The president appears with Erdogan.

Today’s press conference is to be held in the Rose Garden which, like all the best gardens, is outdoors.

Unfortunately for the assembled members of the media, it has begun to rain. The NPR correspondent spies deputy national security advisor Ben Rhodes:

Updated

While we wait for the president, who is a half-hour “late,” you might want to delve into the internal White House emails tracing the evolution of talking points on Benghazi.

Yahoo’s Chris Wilson has created a great interactive tool that organizes the emails in a virtual inbox for easy navigation:

It won’t quite fit in our blog column – use the original version here.

(h/t: @Chris_Moody)

Updated

President Obama will use today’s news conference to call for full funding for the state department and new security measures at US diplomatic outposts, the New York Times reports:

Among other steps, Mr. Obama will ask for Congressional support to increase the number of Marine guards posted at embassies and for Congress to act in areas that could help fulfill recommendations detailed in an independent investigation of the Benghazi attack.

Read the full piece here.

Welcome to our live blog coverage of President Obama’s joint news conference with visiting Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Obama promised Wednesday to take questions from the media today about misconduct at the IRS and other controversies buffeting his boat, including the secret seizure of AP phone records and the Benghazi affair.

It’s the second time this week the president has used a foreign leader as a shield against a media eager to hear his reflections on how badly everything seems to be going for him. On Monday the president took one long, if multi-part, question from an American journalist after a joint conference with UK prime minister David Cameron.

Obama and Erdogan are expected to discuss the Syrian war, which the US is resisting involvement in and which threatens increasingly to spill over into Turkey. On Wednesday Turkey announced the arrest of four suspects in a car bombing attack that killed 51 in a Turkish town near the border last weekend.

Updated

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Powered by Guardian.co.ukThis article titled “Eric Holder testifies before House over IRS and AP scandals – live” was written by Tom McCarthy in New York, for guardian.co.uk on Wednesday 15th May 2013 16.35 UTC

IRS discrimination scandal

In a news conference Tuesday, Holder announced that the department of justice is investigating whether IRS employees broke the law when they singled out conservative groups for extra scrutiny in reviewing requests for nonprofit status.

The activity came to light just before a report by the IRS inspector general was released on Tuesday night. The report found that applications by groups with certain names – Tea Party, Patriots or 9/12 (the date of a 2009 Glenn Beck-led Tea Party march on Washington) – for tax exempt status were singled out and frequently subjected to delay, with some still not processed three years after the initial request. The activity lasted for 18 months starting in early 2010, as the number of such requests surged, the report said.

“Those actions were, I think as everyone can agree, if not criminal, they were certainly outrageous and unacceptable,” Holder said in a news conference Tuesday. “But we are examining the facts to see if there were criminal violations.”

The scandal has huge momentum on the Hill, and Holder is likely to face questions about the scope of his investigation today. The House has announced separate hearings on the report for next week.

Republicans are calling for heads to roll. “My question isn’t about who’s going to resign — my question is who is going to jail over this scandal?” House speaker John Boehner said at a news conference Wednesday morning.

President Obama called the report’s findings “intolerable and inexcusable” and pledged to hold the IRS employees in question accountable.

Hello and welcome to our live blog coverage of attorney general Eric Holder’s testimony before the House judiciary committee. It promises to be a lively appearance, with the Republicans who control the committee having their pick of scandals to use to attack the cabinet member they love to hate most (sorry, Hillary Clinton; the House never voted to hold you in contempt).

The Obama administration has had a bad month. The Benghazi scandal flared up again. The IRS stands accused of bullying conservative groups. And the Justice Department stands accused of bullying journalists and potential whistleblowers. The attorney general has the pleasure of being directly involved in two out of three of these hot messes. Today is the first opportunity the opposition party will have had to confront him about them.

Holder’s testimony before the committee won’t be limited, however, to talk of the Obama administration’s apparent disregard for niceties like the first amendment. Committee chairman Bob Goodlatte, R-Virginia, has made it clear that he wants Holder to answer for a menu of other alleged sins. These include the alleged failure of the FBI to share information with Boston police that might have prevented the Boston Marathon bombings; alleged wasteful spending inside the Justice Department, including a $10,000 pizza party; and alleged, politically motivated neglect of cases associated with conservative causes.

The scandals touching on the IRS and alleged intimidation of journalists and whistleblowers are still unfolding actively, and we’ll take a closer look at them before Holder begins his testimony, scheduled for 1pm ET. 

Updated

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Powered by Guardian.co.ukThis article titled “EU agrees to protect small savers, but divided over tax evasion – as it happened” was written by Graeme Wearden, for guardian.co.uk on Tuesday 14th May 2013 18.04 UTC

6.52pm BST

Closing summary

With the Ecofin meeting over, that’s all from me today. Here’s a closing summary.

• EU finance ministers have agreed that upcoming new rules on how to resolve a failed bank should include guaranteed protection for savers with under €100,000.

The decision, taken at today’s Ecofin meeting, is meant to reassure European bank customers that their money is safe, following the Cypriot bailout farrago, under the upcoming bank recovery and resolution directive that will outline how failing banks are handled.

See 6.09pm for the story, and 5.03pm onwards for highlights of tonight’s press conference.

But there was only limited progress on other issues in Brussels. Ministers failed to reach a full agreement on how other creditors would be ‘bailed in’ under the new bank restructuring rules (see 12.25pm onwards for the key quotes) and the WSJ’s early take is here.

 • Hopes that ministers would agree a new directive to clamp down on tax evasion were also dashed. Austria and Luxembourg refused to sign up for the directive, to the clear annoyance of the EU tax commissioner (see 5.16pm).

Instead, the EC has agreed a mandate for fresh negotiations with the likes of Monaco and San Marino (see 4.50pm for details)

The big news of the morning was a new survey which found a sharp drop in support for the European Union across Europe. Pew said rising unhappiness and anger over the debt crisis was turning the EU into ‘the sick man of Europe’ (see 8.17am for full details)

Ian Traynor, our Europe editor, said the survey showed the relationship between Germany and France is deteriorating (see 11.30am)

Greece’s credit rating was raised by Fitch. It which said the chances of the country leaving the eurozone had receded (see 6.02pm)

And the latest ZEW survey of economic sentiment in Germany was a disappointment. (see 10.23am onwards).

Thanks, as ever, for reading and for the many excellent comments. See you in the morning… Goodnight!

Updated at 7.04pm BST

6.29pm BST

It was another bullish day in Europe’s stock markets, with the FTSE 100 finishing up almost 1% at its highest level since October 2007 up 54 points at 6686.

As my colleague Nick Fletcher points out, it’s the ninth daily rise in a row, and the best run since July 2009.

A takeover bid for Severn Trent (up 13% today) helped push the Footsie higher. Another factor was the sight of a bullish hedge fund manager, David Tepper, on CNBC today:

David Madden, market analyst at IG, explains:

David Tepper may not be the sole reason for this rally, but investors seem to have responded positively to the sight of a major hedge-fund manager making positive noises about the US economy

6.09pm BST

Here’s Reuters take on the EU’s decision to protect small savers, but the lack of concrete agreement on other issues (as we’ve covered through the day).

Depositors keeping less than 100,000 euros in a bank that is being closed down will get all their money back, European Union finance ministers agreed on Tuesday, and most supported the idea that bigger depositors would get privileged status.

"There was general agreement that deposits below 100,000 euros in any resolution will be sacrosanct," Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan, who chaired the talks, told a news conference.

The ministers were discussing rules of closing down banks and the hierarchy of losses imposed on the banks’ owners and creditors in such an event.

EU Internal Market Commissioner Michel Barnier said that most ministers supported the view that large depositors above 100,000 euros should enjoy a privileged status, and be the last to lose any funds, after senior bondholders.

The ministers are to conclude the discussions in June.

6.02pm BST

Greece upgraded – here’s why

Back to Fitch’s decision this evening to upgrade Greece’s credit rating to B- / stable.

The agency said it took the move after concluding that Athens had made real progress in addressing its debt crisis:

The Greek economy is rebalancing: clear progress has been made towards eliminating twin fiscal and current account deficits and ‘internal devaluation’ has at last begun to take hold.

The price has been high in terms of lost output and rising unemployment and the capacity for recovery is still in doubt.

Nonetheless, sovereign debt relief and an easing of fiscal targets have lifted Central Bank measures of economic sentiment to a three-year high and the risk of eurozone exit has receded.

The full statement is online here.

5.44pm BST

End of press conference…

5.37pm BST

Michael Noonan was also forced to defend Ireland’s tax system, including its low corporation tax rates.

It’s not ‘aggressive’ he insists, merely transparent*. Noonan adds that corporation tax levels are being lowered in other countries too, such as Britain.

* – doesn’t that mean we can see right through them, as Pratchett once put it?…

Updated at 5.37pm BST

5.33pm BST

So, small depositors are safe, but we’re not hearing a lot about those with more than €100,000 in a bank that fails.

That’s because ministers couldn’t reached a deal about creditor protection limits. And this could cause jitters in the European banking sector, if corporations, organisations and wealthier individuals fear that they are near the front of the line when the bail-in bucket comes round….

Updated at 5.33pm BST

5.28pm BST

Noonan: on the Cyprus mistakes…

The next question points out that the original Cyprus bailout managed to impose losses on small savers by declaring a tax, rather than a bail-in.

Why can’t it happen again?

Noonan replies that the Cyprus situation was unusual, and that everyone now realises that the levy was a very bad idea.

The public reaction to what happened in Cyprus has nailed it down "harder than ever" that deposits under €100,000 are sacrosanct, he adds.

Updated at 5.45pm BST

5.26pm BST

Small savers definitely protected

So that’s a firm commitment from the EU ministers that small savers, with up to €100,000 in the bank, will be absolutely protected in the event of a bank failure.

5.23pm BST

Question Time

The Q&A session begins, and the press pack are chasing Noonan over his comments that ‘almost everyone’ in the Ecofin meeting believes guarenteeing savings below €100,000 are sacrosant.

Noonan explains that some finance ministers pointed out that their juristictions have a limit below €100,000 [he doesn't say who].

But the broad agreement, he insists, is that such small savers’ protection is sacrosant.

5.21pm BST

Michel Barnier explains the details of today’s discussions on banking resolution mechanisms:

Updated at 5.21pm BST

5.19pm BST

Just in: Fitch has upgraded Greece’s credit rating to ‘B-’, with a stable outlook.

5.16pm BST

Tax commissioner: high expections weren’t met today

EU tax commissioner Algirdas Semeta is being politely scathing about Austria and Luxembourg after they blocked the Ecofin from adopting the new tax evasion directive today.

Semeta says that expectations were high going into the meeting:

I cannot say that high expectations were fully met…..

and he added:

It saw with great disappointment that I saw a deal on the new savings directive blocked today…..

Semeta does hail the new mangate on tax deals as a step forwards, but hopes that EU leaders can do better when they meet nextr week.

In the battle of tax evasion, what we achieved today was undoubedly a step forward.

Let’s hope that what our leaders agree next week is more like a giant leap.

5.07pm BST

Noonan: no tax evasion deal today

Noonan confirms that EU ministers couldn’t reach agreement on the new tax evasion directive, but points to the agreement on a new mandate on negotiations with other countries (see 4.50pm)

Updated at 5.07pm BST

5.05pm BST

Curious… Noonan tells the press conference that "almost everyone" agreed that deposits under €100k should be protected under the new bank resolution mechanisms.

Who doesn’t?…

He adds that there was general agreement for a broad scope for a bail-in procedure with "a limited number of exclusions".

(However, as we covered at lunchtime, no agreement on the depositor preference details)

5.03pm BST

Ecofin press conference begins

And we’re off! Michael Noonan begins by saying that Ecofin made ‘concrete progress’ on three issues — bank resolution mechanisms, the EU budget, and tax evasion.

(remember, it’s being streamed here)

4.50pm BST

European Council: new mandate for tax evasion talks

The European Council has issued a statement, confirming that EU ministers agreed to give the commission a mandate to negotiate amendments to the EU’s agreements with Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra and San Marino on the taxation of savings income (tax evasion, basically)

It’s online here: Savings taxation: Council go-ahead to negotiate with Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra and San Marino.

Here’s a flavour:

The decision represents an important step in the EU’s efforts to clamp down on tax evasion and tax fraud.

The aim is to ensure that the five countries continue to apply measures that are equivalent to the EU’s directive on the taxation of savings income, which is being updated. The Commission will negotiate on the basis of a draft directive amending the savings directive (2003/48/EC), aimed at improving its effectiveness and closing certain loopholes so as to prevent its circumvention.

Updated at 4.50pm BST

4.44pm BST

You can follow the Ecofin press conference live, here. (not actually underway yet…)

4.42pm BST

The Ecofin press conference is about to start. It’s 20 minutes earlier than expected, too. A rarity for the EU….

4.34pm BST

WSJ: Ministers divided over bank reforms

The Wall Street Journal has summed up the lack of progress over bank resolution mechanisms today (as covered in the blog from 12.11pm onwards)

EU Ministers Split on Protection for Depositors (paywall).

Here’s a flavour:

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble, along with his Dutch and Danish counterparts, backed a tough approach in which uninsured depositors would contribute on the same level as senior bondholders when problems arose.

While that would help limit the losses borne by other classes of creditors, some worry it could jeopardize financial stability and scare off savers.

At the other end of the spectrum, France’s Finance Minister Pierre Moscovici said uninsured depositors should be excluded from sharing losses as a general rule, with a resolution authority able to question that in individual cases.

Other ministers backed a mixed approach under which uninsured depositors would be tapped, but only after all other creditors had been bailed in. Such "depositor preference" is supported by the European Commission and European Central Bank, and is already status quo in countries such as the U.S.

Updated at 4.35pm BST

4.28pm BST

Back in Brussels the finance ministers of Luxembourg and Austria have been holding their own press conference, to explain why they didn’t support the EU directive on tax evasion.

Luc Frieden defended the countries’ line, saying they are committed to the issue:

Here’s some other highlights:

Oh, and it’s still being streamed here

Updated at 4.37pm BST

4.20pm BST

RadioBubble, the Greek citizens media group, has written up yesterday’s marches in support of Greek teachers who are being ‘mobilised’ by Greek authorities to prevent them holding strike action.

Update on the teachers’ strike and civil mobilization – 14 May 2013

It reports that Greek police have been distributing mobilization orders widely today, which are designed to stop teachers holding industrial action at the start of the Greek exam season.

There’s also a photo of a mobilization order which shows that the measure is "open-ended":

In other words, the teachers’ right to strike has been revoked until further notice.

4.13pm BST

Word from Brussels that the Eurogroup meeting is almost over…

Updated at 4.15pm BST

4.11pm BST

Britain’s permanent representative to the EU confirms that EU ministers failed to reach an agreement on the Savings tax directive, but did agree a mandate for reaching agreemetn with third-parties:

4.07pm BST

Head-up: eurozone GDP data for the first three months of 2013 will be released tomorrow morning. Economists expect another quarter of contraction, extending the eurozone recession by another three months.

But the decline is likely to be slower than in the last three months of 2012.

My colleague Jo Moulds has the details: Eurozone recession set to ease but recovery elusive

3.14pm BST

Disappointment as ministers fail to agree tax evasion directive

Algirdas Semeta, Commissioner for Taxation, says he is disappointed that finance ministers didn’t reach agreement on the tax evasion directive today (thanks to obstruction from certain members).

The issue will be considered at an EU summit next week (on May 22nd), he adds.

But Germany’s Wolfgang Schäuble is more positive, saying it would be wrong to think there is ‘frustration’ at the Eurogroup today. He points out that leaders have reached "unanimous agreement" on a mandate for negotiations with Switzerland over tax evasion.

Updated at 3.20pm BST

3.01pm BST

Maria Fekter appears to be effectively blocking the EU’s attempt to bring in new rules to clamp down on tax evasion.

She’s saying Austria can’t sign up to the new Savings Directive until Europe has hammered out deals with other parts of the world for the exchange of information.

However, those countries (such as Switzerland) are resisting those agreements until Europe has agreed its own tougher rules inhouse…. by approving the Directive.

2.56pm BST

2.56pm BST

Fekter adds that Austria sees the Directive "a little more positively" than in the past….

2.52pm BST

Austria: We won’t back new Savings Directive today

The question today is whether finance ministers back an amended EU Savings Directive, or not.

Maria Fekter, Austria’s finance minister, says that the existing directive has never worked because its scope is too limited.

So she is minded to back the new directive, but "not today" as there is insufficient harmonisation with the rest of the world.

I accept the text, but not adopted today, because we then have the situation that we in Europe are going further [than other countries].

2.47pm BST

Key event

EU finance ministers are discussing the issue of tax evasion, and whether to share more information on savings accounts (a big issue for George Osborne today – see 11.18am).

2.38pm BST

The Ecofin meeting is continuing, and being streamed here. No major dramas yet…..

2.37pm BST

Back in Brussels, finance ministers have voted through an amended 2013 budget – despite George Osborne asking for extra savings to be made.

That’s via Jürgen Baetz, who is covering the Ecofin meeting for AP.

2.18pm BST

Portugal rules out gold sale

Portugal has no intention selling its gold reserves to fund any future aid package, the head of the country’s central bank has pledged.

Bank of Portugal Governor Carlos Costa insisted today that Portugal was not falling off track with its bailout programme. Asked about the possibility of a gold sale in future, Costa replied:

It is not applicable in Portugal.

Portugal holds 382.5 tonnes of gold, according to recent estimates. That’s worth around bn (€14.6bn) at current prices — around 25 times more than Cyprus’s reserves.

Costa also ruled out revising his economic forecasts, even though the bank expects a 1.1% increase in GDP in 2014, while the Lisbon government only expects 0.6% growth.

1.49pm BST

British Land to quit continental Europe

The economic crisis which is hitting faith in the EU (see opening post onwards) has also thumped British Land.

The company announced today that the value of its European portfolio has fallen by 17%, mainly due to the biting recession in southern Europe.

British Land now plans to dispose of its continental businesses.

My colleague Nick Fletcher has the full story here: British Land plans European exit as economic crisis hits property values

Updated at 1.49pm BST

1.25pm BST

City analyst Dan Davies jokes that Eurozone finance minister haven’t really grasped the point that "depositor preference" means the order at which creditors are bailed into a rescue:

1.09pm BST

Ecofin: early reaction

The lack of clear agreement between finance ministers has alarmed author Lawrence McDonald, who points out that Europe has had years to reach a deal:

The Cyprus bailout has put the issue of bank failures in the forefront of many people’s minds, especially after its government briefly planned to tax all savers.

Eurogroup ministers now all insist that ‘insured depositors’ are safe. But those guarantees are only as strong as the government that stands behind them, as Sony Kapoor of the ReDefine thinktank points out:

1.01pm BST

Barnier: Not convinced by French plan

European commissioner Michel Barnier isn’t convinced by Pierre Moscovici’s suggestion that Europe should not lay out a clear "depositor preference"

Moscovici is pushing for ‘flexibility’ over who picks up the bill, rather than a fixed order for which creditors suffer losses when a bank is in trouble.

Barnier didn’t mince his words, either, telling the room (in French) that:

I have some difficulty, to be frank with you, with Pierre’s proposal.

(quote via the FT’s Peter Spiegel)

Ireland’s Michael Noonan, who is chairing the meeting, summed up the meeting by claiming that finance ministers were homing in on an agreement.

But the watching journalists aren’t sure that’s quite right:

(our 12.11pm post summed up the differing views too)

Updated at 1.10pm BST

12.25pm BST

Osborne: calls for ‘flexibility with restraint’

Now George Osborne speaks, saying that "flexibility with restraint" is the key to succesful, workable, rules for failing European banks.

The UK chancellor says it is essential that small savers (with up to €100,000) are completely protected under rules for handling a bank that needs to be recapitalised, or wound down.

Osborne points out that the decision of whether to put senior bondholders ahead of uninsured depositors, or behind them, is tricky. A "clear creditor hierarchy" can be evaded, he explains.

Here’s Osborne’s thinking:

If bondholders face the first hit, then corporations could get round the rules by moving money from bonds into bank deposits. But on the other hand, protecting all deposits could be controversial in a country such as Cyprus where many were held by businessmen from outside the eurozone. Should they really be protected ahead of European banks?

Osborne also backed an idea mentioned by Dutch finance minister Jeroen DIjsselbloem, of a ‘bailinable buffer’ in case banks hit trouble. The UK, though, can’t afford to set its own fund up, though, given the size of its banking sector.

And before anyone suggested a new levy, Osborne added that Britain has "the highest bank taxes of any country around this table.

Updated at 12.29pm BST

12.11pm BST

EU ministers split over bank resolution powers

EU finance ministers are still at odds over how to resolve failing banks.

The public session (streamed live here) has heard a range of views over bank resolution mechanisms. The debate revolves around how creditors are ‘bailed in’ to fund future rescue deals, and in what order of priority.

Jörg Asmussen of the ECB said was "essential" that ministers reach agreement quickly, so that bank resolution can be introduced in 2014.

we need to establish a clear pecking order for the bail-in.

Sweden’s Anders Borg warned that introducing rules that would ‘bail-in’ large creditors could be destabilising for EU countries who are not in the euro. They cannot rely on the ECB to step in, he warned.

Spain’s Luis De Guindos was also concerned about the implication of exposing depositors with more than €100,000 in the bank to losses. That could easily prompt a bank run, even among smaller savers, he warned:

France’s Pierre Moscovici called for flexibility, saying a ‘discretionally approach’ is best when deciding who should take the hit.

But Koen Geens of Belgium argued in favour of clear rules:

As did Germany and Denmark:

Updated at 2.14pm BST

11.51am BST

Another day, another interest rate cut. Serbia has slashed borrowing costs by 50 basis points, from 11.75% to 11.25%. Analysts had only expected a quarter-point cut.

It’s the first cut in a year, and follows a stream of similar rate reductions in the past fortnight (eg the ECB, Australia, Poland, Israel…)

11.30am BST

Ian Traynor: Public mood at odds with Europe’s crisis response

Our Europe editor, Ian Traynor, has dubbed the Pew’s report into Europe "a catalogue of unremitting gloom (unless you’re a German)"

The report (see 8.17am onwards for details) is the latest sign that the Franco-German alliance at the heart of Europe is wobbling, he says.

Ian writes:

It is striking how the policy responses of EU leaders to the currency crisis are at such odds with public opinion, as centrifugal political action clashes with centripetal national moods.

The crisis management of the past three years has essentially seen Berlin, Brussels, and others resort to technocratic fixes in an incremental process of pooling economic and fiscal policy powers in the eurozone.

Outside of Germany, however, public support for surrendering such powers from the national level to Brussels, as is happening, is declining rapidly, generating an ever widening "democratic deficit" in the EU that the leaders regularly bemoan but have done nothing to address.

Here’s Ian’s full analysis: Eurozone crisis sees Franco-German axis crumbling

11.18am BST

George Osborne will push fellow finance ministers at today’s Ecofin to help tackle tax evasion by signing up for a new EU directive on savings.

Our political editor, Patrick Wintour, explains that the directive will mean countries share more tax information, making it harder to conceal taxable assets.

Osborne, in advance of a heads of EU government summit later this month devoted to tax transparency, will urge his fellow EU ministers to sign off the directive, which has been delayed by almost a decade.

 Writing to other EU finance ministers ahead of Tuesday’s meeting, he says: "Unless Europe can show it can agree on this existing proposal, our commitment to a new, stronger standard will not be credible. It is a test of our seriousness, and the world is watching us."

Here’s the full story: George Osborne urges EU finance ministers to sign tax directive

Updated at 11.19am BST

11.07am BST

The public section of the Ecofin meeting is being streamed here

Updated at 11.07am BST

11.03am BST

Photos: EU finance ministers meet in Brussels

Over in Brussels, finance ministers from across the EU have gathered for today’s Ecofin event. On the agenda, the push towards banking union and the details of the 2013 EU budget.

Here’s a few photos of the pre-meeting banter:

The agenda for the meeting is online here:

ECONOMIC and FINANCIAL AFFAIRS Council meeting, Brussels, 14 May 2013

In summary (all times approximate)

• Banking Recovery and Resolution – from 10am BST/11am CEST

• Any other business – from noon BST/1pm CEST

• Draft Amending Budget No 2 to the General Budget 2013 – from 1.30pm BST/2.30pm CEST

• Savings taxation (relating to how savings income is taxed, and potential tax evasion) – from 2.15pm BST/3.15pm CEST

• Press conference: 5pm BST/6pm CEST

Updated at 2.44pm BST

10.46am BST

ZEW: What the analysts say

The news that German investor confidence has barely improved (see 10.23am) has disappointed financial analysts.

They say it shows that the eurozone recession is grinding on, while Germany itself appears to be stabilising.

Here’s a round-up of reaction, from the Reuters terminal:

Lothar Hessler of HSBC Trinkaus

We had expected a better result after industrial orders and output and exports all rose recently. Also the European Central Bank cut rates.

The data nevertheless point to a stabilisation of the German economy. It is growing again. But the euro zone is still in a recessionary phase. That in turn dampens the upswing here.

David Brown of New View Economics

Germany and the troubled Eurozone economies are poles apart in terms of where they are in the recovery cycle and Eurozone policymakers should not confuse them.

While Germany continues to pull away, the rest of the Eurozone still needs a lot more stimulus efforts from the ECB and government fiscal policies before the Euro area is off the recession rocks.

Thilo Heidrich of Postbank

Basically, the ZEW index remained below expectations. Above all, a strong stock exchange performance and good industrial data from Germany had led people to expect something better.

On the other hand, the data points to a continued expectation among participants of economic stabilisation or a slight recovery."

And Mike van Dulken of Accendo Markets points out that ZEW took the shine of this morning’s decent industrial production data (see 10.12am)

Updated at 10.47am BST

10.23am BST

ZEW survey of German sentiment shows little improvement

From Pew to ZEW…and the closely watched survey of economic sentiment has shown that German analysts and investors are still alarmed by the troubles in the eurozone.

The ZEW index inched higher to 36.4, from 36.3, dashing forecasts of a larger rise on the back of recent decent data.

A separate measure of current conditions dropped to 8.9 this month from 9.2 in April – suggesting the German economy is struggling to bounce back from its contraction at the end of 2012.

Clemens Fuest, president of the ZEW Institute, commented:

Despite mostly positive economic data for the German economy, the ZEW indicator remains at the level of the previous month.

This may be due to the still poor economic situation in the euro zone, that is also reflected by the recent ECB interest rate cut

Reaction to follow….

Updated at 10.23am BST

10.12am BST

Eurozone industrial output rose by 1% month-on-month in March, according to Eurostat.

That’s twice as bit a rise as analysts had forecast, and an encouraging sign for Europe’s manufacturing base (although the increase was mainly due to strong energy demand).

February’s reading was revised down from 0.4% to 0.3%, so the sector is still 1.7% smaller than a year ago.

9.52am BST

Italian govenment debt hits record high

Italy’s government debt has risen to a new alltime high of €2.035 trillion in March – the Bank of Italy reported.

9.32am BST

Pew’s findings also chime with the latest Guardian/ICM poll, released this morning, which showed a surge in support for the eurosceptic Ukip party.

The poll found that the number of voters backing Ukip has doubled to 18%, while the three main parties all lost four percentage points.

Ths rising anti-European sentiment, both in the country and on its own backbenches, has forced the UK government to announce plans for a new draft bill introducing an in-out EU referendum.

Here’s the full story: David Cameron offers olive branch on EU referendum as Ukip soars

9.18am BST

The agenda

Quick bit of housekeeping. Here’s what’s coming up in the eurozone

Ecofin finance ministers meeting in Brussels begins: 10am BST/11am CEST

Ecofin press conference: 5pm BST/6pm CEST (estimated!)

Spanish debt auction: morning

German ZEW survey of economic sentiment: 10am BST

ECB’s Jörg Asmussen speaking in Berlin: 5pm BST.

(via RanSquawk)

9.08am BST

The ‘national stereotypes’ section of Pew’s report gives an interesting insight into European attitudes:

Asked which EU member was ‘most compassionate’, people in each country surveyed picked themselves.

The French identified themselves as both the ‘most arrogant’ and ‘least arrogant’, while everyone decided that Germany was the most trustworthy, apart from the Greeks who felt they deserved the crown:

(that’s from the bottom of this page)

Updated at 9.08am BST

8.56am BST

Pew was particularly concerned about France, describing the eurozone’s second-largest economy as "Dyspeptic", and drifting away from Germany.

No European country is becoming more dispirited and disillusioned faster than France. In just the past year, the public mood has soured dramatically across the board.

Economic woes are the main cause, with 91% of the French saying their economy is doing badly – up from 81% a year ago.

And two-thirds of those surveyed reckon president Francois Hollande is doing a poor job handling the challenges posed by the economic crisis. That’s 24 percentage points worse that his predecessor, Nicolas Sarkozy.

Worryingly for Brussels, 77% said believed European economic integration has made things worse for France (+14), and 58% now have a bad impression of the European Union as an institution (+18).

Updated at 8.56am BST

8.17am BST

Pew: European Union is The New Sick Man of Europe

Good morning, and welcome to our rolling coverage of the eurozone financial crisis, and other key events in the global economy.

Public support for the European project has fallen and distrust between countries is growing, according to a new survey released overnight that shows the damage caused by the region’s debt crisis over the last few years.

The well-respected Washington-based Pew Research Center warned that support for the EU has slid over the last 12 months, from 60% in 2012 to just 45% this year.

In a report titled "The New Sick Man of Europe: the European Union", Pew showed that backing for European integration tumbling in France.

The people of Europe are increasingly gloomy about economic conditions, disillusioned about their leaders, and losing faith in the whole idea of European Unity, the poll found.

As Pew put it:

The effort over the past half century to create a more united Europe is now the principal casualty of the euro crisis. The European project now stands in disrepute across much of Europe….

The prolonged economic crisis has created centrifugal forces that are pulling European public opinion apart, separating the French from the Germans and the Germans from everyone else.

The southern nations of Spain, Italy and Greece are becoming ever more estranged as evidenced by their frustration with Brussels, Berlin and the perceived unfairness of the economic system.

Pew surveyed over 7,600 people in March in eight countries – Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Poland, Greece and the Czech Republic.

It also found that Angela Merkel remains the most popular leader in Europe, by a wide margin. Not just at home — Merkel won majority approval for her handling of the European economic crisis in five of the eight nations surveyed.

Other leaders, though, are in the doghouse, Pew says:

Compounding their doubts about the Brussels-based European Union, Europeans are losing faith in the capacity of their own national leaders to cope with the economy’s woes. In most countries surveyed, fewer people today than a year ago think their national executive is doing a good job dealing with the euro crisis.

The full report is here.

Pew’s report comes as European finance ministers gather in Brussels today to discuss how to implement banking union across the eurozone. Perhaps they’lll find time to chat about these findings in the corridors…

I’ll be tracking all the developments through the day, including more highlights of the Pew survey, and reaction to its findings.

Updated at 8.45am BST

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